A Conversation with Carnegie Ethics Fellow Hinh Tran

In a new interview series, Carnegie Council editor Alex Woodson speaks with members of the inaugural Carnegie Ethics Fellows cohort.

ALEX WOODSON: Was there a moment for you that made you interested in ethics in your professional life?

HINH TRAN: Growing up in Silicon Valley during the 90s and early 2000s meant I was young enough to have grown up as a digital native, but old enough to have experienced the end of the analog age. That allowed me to appreciate how groundbreaking the Internet and smartphone were. Never before was the entirety of recorded human knowledge and experience so readily accessible. Everything from mundane selfies to esoteric Wikipedia pages became available in mere seconds with the tap of a finger.

But that unbridled awe and optimism was eventually tempered by the ways technology could also be abused. In particular, the Cambridge Analytica scandal and the spread of online conspiracy theories like Pizzagate and QAnon showed that seemingly benign tech platforms could be exploited to violate people’s rights and even undermine democracy and social cohesion. That made me think more critically about how to integrate ethics into the development of technologies that could affect billions of people around the world and what I could do in my professional life as a tech lawyer to facilitate that.

ALEX WOODSON: How did you find about Carnegie Ethics Fellows? Why did you think it would be a good fit for you?

HINH TRAN: I found out about the Carnegie Council when I learned that Jeanette Quick, a former Robert J. Myers Fellow at the Council, was appointed as a deputy commissioner for the California Department of Financial Protection and Innovation (DFPI). Because the DFPI is one of the fintech industry’s main regulators, personnel changes there are highly scrutinized. When I looked up her biography, I noticed her fellowship at the Council. Curious, I looked the Council up and saw that applications were open for the Carnegie Ethics Fellowship.

I thought it would be a good fit because there often is a disconnect between industry and civil society, and the Fellowship seemed like an excellent opportunity to help facilitate the exchange of ideas and encourage the development of ethical leadership, especially at a time when the tech industry was being buffered by scandals and crises like the collapse of FTX and Silicon Valley Bank.

ALEX WOODSON: You're senior counsel at Ramp, a tech company that focuses on automating companies’ financial operations. How does ethics fit in with your role there?

HINH TRAN: I joined Ramp in early 2022 from a litigation firm in San Francisco. There, I was used to getting cases after a dispute had already arisen, and my job was to focus on zealously advocating for the client, whatever their situation. At Ramp (which I like to think is still a plucky start-up, even though we’ve grown from 200 to 700 employees since I’ve joined), my role is focused on anticipating potential issues in areas as diverse as product, regulatory, compliance, litigation, and employment law. To do so, I break issues down to identify and manage risks and recognize potential opportunities. Building a new product, for example, can involve multiple stakeholders inside and outside of the company who might have competing interests and goals. Evaluating and weighing those interests using a framework and decision-making process that acknowledges and reflects our ethical values—instead of just the bottom line—can guide us to a holistic decision that best benefits the company, its employees, and its users. One of our key values, for example, is “we win when our customers win.” We do so by aligning our interests with those of our customers, giving them a stake in our success and vice versa. That guides us to outcomes that are mutually beneficial, such as our Price Intelligence product, which allows us to identify savings for customers.

ALEX WOODSON: As a lawyer working in the tech industry, is there an overlooked ethical issue that you find yourself regularly confronted with?

HINH TRAN: One of the issues that is sometimes overlooked in the tech industry is how bad actors can take advantage of seemingly benign products. Most tech companies are filled with people eager to make contributions to the world. For example, Google’s mission is to “organize the world's information and make it universally accessible and useful.” Facebook’s mission is to “give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together.” Square, the first company I worked for, sought to allow any business, no matter how small, to take payments anywhere. But tools meant to make people’s lives better can be easily co-opted by bad actors.

At Square, for example, our finance products were developed initially with small businesses in mind. We talked to people running restaurants, retail shops, coffee shops, farmers’ markets, etc., and optimized for what they needed and what they wanted. But those very same features made our product attractive to criminals who wanted to use our products to sell illicit goods and vulnerable to fraudsters who wanted to steal from us and our customers. We had to adapt and start to think about how our products could be used for nefarious purposes. So we rolled out initiatives like requiring two-factor authentication, vetting users aggressively upfront, declining questionable transactions, and freezing suspicious accounts. Ultimately, building an ethical product means that we have a responsibility to anticipate how bad actors might abuse our products and to develop solutions that protect the company and our customers.

ALEX WOODSON: You’re also a lecturer at USC’s Gould School of Law and were twice recognized as one of the University of Michigan's best graduate student instructors. What is your strategy as a teacher? What do you think resonates with students in regards to your teaching style? 

HINH TRAN: I think my students appreciate that I approach teaching as a two-way street. Instead of just lecturing at them, I try to go over the material as if I am learning about it alongside them. For example, I try to assign readings that present multiple differing viewpoints about a topic. During class, I ask students to summarize and explain the readings, and then I test, probe, and even challenge their views without dictating to them what they should think. That way, we learn not just from the readings or whoever is in front of the classroom but also from the collective knowledge and experience of everyone there.

Learning about the law (which I teach at USC) or economics and public policy (which I taught at Michigan) is conceptually less about facts or immutable laws of nature and more about people—how they think, what they are motivated by, what they value, how they respond to incentives, and how they interact with each other. Giving students the foundation for understanding these issues and catalyzing their learning by asking the right questions allows them to truly understand concepts and come to their own conclusions about how the world and human society work.

Carnegie Council for Ethics in International Affairs is an independent and nonpartisan nonprofit. The views expressed within this article are those of the Fellow and do not necessarily reflect the position of Carnegie Council.